Before We Bid, Before You Call

You should be thinking of a few things before we discuss a fence, they will allow us to more accurately give you an idea of price and what’s involved.

1. What is the fence being used for? Dog, privacy, kids, property delineation?

2. How long is your proposed fence? A guess is often plenty good enough. I often hear “I’m no good at distances”. Ten feet? Half a mile? If you really want to get technical go out and pace it off. Giant steps for a mid sized person are about three feet.

3. Is there a particular style of fence you have in mind? What’s the address of the fence. We might well know the one you are talking about. Can you take a photo and send it with an email?

4. What’s your address. All things being equal, a fence off Table Mesa west of Broadway, is going to cost more than the same fence at Arapahoe and Foothills. Soil conditions vary street by street in Boulder, digging is as much as half the labour costs.

5. What is your budget. If you have a very limited price range let us know before you choose the gold plated with rosewood inlay option. We can steer you towards something almost as pretty and well within your target price.

6. Lastly what about landscaping. Is the fence going in a place with established lawn? Might need to think about getting sprinkler lines moved or repaired. Is the intended fence line within a sprinkler’s spray pattern? Constant watering can shorten the life of a fence and cause wood to quickly fade to grey.

The enemy of all wood fences.

Materials

These are the pickets we’re using. Just over ¾ of an inch. I’ve been told by our supplier that we should be able to get them through the rest of the season, we’ll see. You seldom see boards this thick from commercial fence suppliers. Just doesn’t happen. Usually fence pickets are just under 9/16 of an inch thick. Thick enough so the supplier doesn’t have to say half inch but a long long way from three quarters. The wood feels different handling, more substantial. Wood from that unamed big box building supply is barely over a half inch and truth be told I haven’t seen Western Red Cedar pickets there lately. It’s another inferior cedar often called incense cedar.

Update, only available on 4" wide pickets for 6' high fence, the wider pickets were discontinued, we'll see how long it lasts.

Update on update, 9/20/07 now we are having problems on the 4” pickets as well. I’m buying fancy7/8 inch thick pickets to full fill the current contract. It’s either that or delay until the first of the month. Because this source isn’t dependable I’ll probably offer them only “as available”. I do think I’ll start offering the fancy 7/8 inch at a higher price. I like the low moisture content and the small amount of shrinkage.

Still waiting for a price decrease due to the fall off in new construction. Instead cedar and steel went up again in the beginning of the month. One of my suppliers has begun laying off administrative staff already, lets hope they remain in business. There are only two large suppliers of fence cedar in Denver, competition is good.

Notice the colour? Brown. This wood is brown, red, and tan, just like the name of the species, Western Red Cedar. The white pickets of a good grade from commercial fence supplies are also usually western red, just not fully matured, so they haven’t yet turned the colour the species is named for. Of course there is also that other white wood imported from China which is also some kind of cedar that gives of an almost medicinal smell. I’m not sure what variety that kind is.

These pickets are called good two face, meaning both sides are culled for appearance. They aren’t one side good as in exterior trim lumber. When there are knots they are usually larger than in trim lumber. Trim lumber usually goes by the designation “select tight knot”, fence wood is “standard or better” often suppliers call their wood #1, #2 or #3. The numbers are just hype as far as I’m concerned and have little relation to the official grades designated by the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association. The really good wood, the clear grade and quarter sawn, is also made from the older trees. The knots are bigger in older trees but they are also fewer. The trees that you get select tight knot from will never give you clear boards, too many knots. As in a lot of things I go for the brand name, and stick with a consistently good brand.






Creag here is sitting on a pile of 2x4x10s that I’m stacking to be stored, behind him is a bunk of 4x4s still in the wrapper. Notice the wood is coloured brown, tan, and red. This is wood from mature trees in Canada. Currently Home Depot has very white coloured posts, subject to twisting and warping and having very little natural resistance to rot. Which would you choose?

We tend to buy our wood by the bunk, that way we control how dry or wet it is. We like wood to dry out slowly and to avoid split and warped timbers. We store our wood inside out of the sun and keep it covered. For the past couple years we’ve been buying Weyerhaeuser and their product called CedarOne. It seems to be of a consistent good quality.


Starting in rear left to right
Stainless Steel Ring Shank Nails
Galvanized Ring Shanks
Three inch galvy ring shanks
Lags (lag screws or lag bolts)
Two inch galvy finish nails
Galvanized brads
Then in front
Coated 1 5/8 screws
Carriage Bolts
Three inch coated screws
Hex drive four inch screws.


What’s up with the nails
The nails on the left are called coil nails. A couple of years ago we switched to coil nails because they were a better fastener. Before that we had always used screws for the pickets. With the screws we started by using what are called yellow gold screws, the most common wood screw. We upgraded to an electroplate galvanized screw which though more resistant to rust also reacted with cedar and left a stain, and finally to the high grade coated screw. They are the tan ones in front.
All screws had their drawbacks and advantages. I liked the fact that they go in slow. Guys putting up pickets had a chance to think a little bit while they were working. When someone slows down to look at what they are doing they do a better job. They were reversible, you can always unscrew one. They were strong.
We had one problem with the screws. They tended to split the pickets, the coated screw we finally settled on was wide. In order to hold the coating the screw had to be made of a softer metal, and therefore thicker.
The coil nails are only for pickets. They are a special nail designed specifically for cedar and redwood. The ends are blunted so that when they enter the wood they don’t cut into the fibres but rather split it. Similar to the way a sewing needle for silk is blunted. The nails are slim, they don’t split the wood, considerably slimmer than the nails shot from those all purpose nail guns. The ring shanks are tiny ridges around the nail that keep it from pulling out.
We’ve also noticed that the nails don’t leave as noticeable a hole in the wood as they are countersunk. They set just below or at the surface giving the wood a smooth look and also the head is smaller than a regular wood screw. Screws still have their place, particularly where they can be pre drilled, carefully driven, and filled with wood putty, as in specialty gates from the shop.
Next to the coil nails are a clip of stick nails. In this case three and a half inch ring shank galvies. These are a big bad nail. Sink one in your hand by mistake and you’ll wake up right away. We use these only on face nailing dimensional lumber. Like when putting up rails on a generic cedar privacy.
More often for rails, because we do a lot of toe nailing we use the three inch wood screws. They are the dark brown ones. The screws have better resistance to pull out and when placed they tend to pull the wood together for a tight joint. A careful look at the joints on our mid range to up market fences, and you can see the joints are tight, no sloppiness. A tightly made fence adds to the strength and the overall look of being uniform and well made.

Photos

Pickets of select tight knot grade cedar, routered groove every third picket.

Another faux post fence. Look real don't they?


Chamfer cut post top on a ranch rail fence

This fence isn't ours, but we like it a lot. It's very old, perhaps made by a homeowner good at working with wood.

This is the final section of the fence above, I've forgotten what these reverse curves are called. I think they are gorgeous. We know a shop that will cut these for us.

This looks like a typical cedar fence with the pickets set between the posts, a top rail, and a fascia board. It's not. Those posts aren't real. We can make this "faux post" style fence to mimic 4x4 or 6x6 posts. The bad part is that it looks like a regular cedar fence from the back.

The customer in this instance was a four time repeating customer. The first fence was to establish property line and was made appealing to both sides so that the neighbor couldn't complain about a less than stellar fence. Across the front he got the full on best fence we make for the entrance to his house. Later for deer he got this one, and still later a similar one across the side. The fence in the photo is 3 yrs old.



In this fence too things are not as they appear. There is a dark brown picket half way from both ends of the section that is actually a post. Boulder code calls for no more than 30 square feet of fence between posts, to keep the appearance the customer wanted we added a hard to notice smaller post in the middle. There is also a hidden rail that all the pickets are attached to in the middle. Click on the photo and some of the features might be easier to see.


Faux Posts with re used pickets. Usually we don't reuse materials as it costs more, in this case the pickets were so thick we pulled off what we could and used new when we ran out. After installation the whole thing was stained, the old pickets breathed a sigh of relief when the oil of the new stain was applied.

Closer faux posts

A fence with pickets that grow taller as they go down the street?

Scalloped with French Gothic pickets and posts painted purple and pink.

Ranch Rail or California Split fence. Spaced picket gate. Posts 4x6, rails 2x6 pickets 1x4


Vertical lattice following grade and an arbor

fence cut around a tree, notice the property pin in the corner.

Diagonal Lattice stepping up a hill.

AboveSix foot deer fence using 2x4 welded wire and pressure treated lodgepole pine posts.


Above Detail of the cedar rail, pressure treated post junction.


Lap Joint on a gate that won't sag




No we don't pay people to write this stuff


Scalloped with 2x6 caps


Simple privacy but with big 4x6 posts, this fence gets a lifetime guarantee on the posts.


A short and simple vertical lattice


Bent Rail with 1x2 pickets


Basic 2x2 Ballister Fence. Picket tops cut to slant, post tops chamfered, rails toenailed to posts.


Entry Gate Muang Sing Guest House

House Luang Prabang


Northern Bus Station


Classic Removable Rails


How do you spell Flur De Li


I replaced the existing lattice with the much tighter variation to shield the view of new construction next door.




Extended the existing fence four sections.


2x2 ballister fence with big posts, post caps, curve top gate.


Same fence as above



T+G pickets curved gate

What we are working on now, (the line up)

4/19/07
Extend fence for past customer in Chataqua neighborhood. Start Monday the 9th probably complete Friday the 13th, lucky me. DONE see photos

Colonial Style fence and gate on Arapahoe waiting for final version and rebid. Done.May 8

Ballister fence Chataqua neighborhood 4/23/07 DONE Completed May 4?

Replace posts on split rail for HOA Table Mesa five posts left to complete 5/20/07 Done 6/16/07
61 feet of lattice top 7 foot tall in Chataqua neighborhood Changed to 57 ft. Done

Gate in Holiday neighborhood NBldr Done 5/20/07

150 ft of ranch rail / lattice top Agate Dr. posts in 5/23/07 Done 5/29/07

150 ft privacy 30th and Aurora waiting on city of Boulder flood permit working on Done 6/7/07

160 ft of ranch rail Niwot Done

150ft privacy Grant Place property line dispute, scheduled to tear down for surveyers on August 1 Done

87' of privacy Niwot (4x6 posts, whoo hoo) one very solid fence Done

110' of 2x4 welded wire with top rail up next to the Mountains on Pearl waiting for posts to set Done

Move privacy fence new front yard picket in Chataqua neighborhood start Done

200 ft of privacy Table Mesa (the Fairfield fence) Done

Repair one post apartment complex Done

Repair two posts 26th St.

66ft of 7' privacy 7th St. Done

90ft of lattice top fence and 40 ft split rail 2 gaits, Sugarloaf Fence Done

60 ft of 3 rail split with gate Wonderland Hill Done

880 ft of split rail Nederland Done

Lattice fences, privacy fence, arbors and so on N. Bldr. Done

Privacy fence Utica w/ toenails and top rail Done

Chain link for real estate company Done

21 feet for retired prof Chatauqua, Done

940 ft up in Ward w/gates. Done

120 ft generic pricacy out by foothills with a couple of gates. Done

150 ft of fancy stepped privacy on the hill

300 ft ranch rail w wire lafayette

Below are some standard charges for extras or common changes. After the list are a few basic scenarios showing how we price extra charges.
Hourly charges people $40
Hourly charges for the Bobcat $50

Change $100
Re bid or second bid $100
Site visit $100
Extra visits to code services $100
Hand dig for 4x4 $15
Hand dig for 6x6 $22
Remove dirt 4x4 $7.5
Remove dirt 6x6 $15
Move dirt on site half price